272v-273 and Fisher (Fisher Rare Books Room, U. of Toronto Library), ff. Significantly, he did not. She undoubtedly thought it was better to be a queen than the sister of a king. O now let Richmond and Elizabeth, The true successors of each royal House, By God’s fair ordinance conjoin together! Richard would have been far better off keeping her close by and marrying her off to one of his own loyal men. But I would assume that a marriage between them would have been discussed some time before Christmas, which was well before the negotiations with Portugal started. Elizabeth of York was the eldest child of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville.She was born a favoured princess in a glamorous, if insecure, court. An AU where King Richard III wins at Bosworth and kills Henry Tudor, Elizabeth of York’s betrothed and, thanks to the letters they shared, her one and only true love. Doctor Who Moffat Era: Adrienne’s Top Five, Why Doctor Who May No Longer Be A Story Of Remarkable Women, Doctor Who: The TARDIS Console Room History in Pictures, Jane Seymour projected the persona people demanded of her: An interview with Adrienne Dillard, We Talk The Last Kingdom With Alexander Dreymon, In the Footsteps of the Six Wives of Henry VIII with Natalie Grueninger and Sarah Morris, The Maligned Lady Rochford – An Interview and Cover Reveal with Adrienne Dillard, Scandalous Liaisons : Charles II and His Court with R.E. One of the books, Boethius’s Consolatio Philosophiae, bears Richard’s motto “Loyalte me lye”, likely written by Elizabeth and bearing her signature underneath. The air of unease and suspicion surrounding the supposed romance seems obvious, but again the evidence is only circumstantial. What would have been the political gain and what would have been the political costs of such a thing as an uncle-niece marriage? I don’t think she hates Richard for not accepting based on historical evidence that he was some maligned, innocent king. Croyland discusses the anticipated death of Queen Anne, alluding that Richard had discussed divorce prior to Anne becoming seriously ill. Due to Tudor propaganda efforts, it was long believed that they were both murdered not long afterward on Richard III's orders; however, the lack of any conclusive proof of their fate has led to alternative scenarios being proposed, for instance that that both boys were murder… So we know it’s in that ballpark. If she did see Richard it was when he went to visit Anne. A firm believer in the idea that there’s no smoke without fire, I believe that a marriage between Richard and Elizabeth was a source of speculation. Why did their uncle Richard III inherit the throne instead of their sister Elizabeth of York? So logically in the case of Elizabeth, he would have to act accordingly. If Richard wanted to thwart a marriage between Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor, all he had to do was marry her off to anyone else. Richard had lost his son and his wife, and needed an heir. Well the Lost Prince theories are a rather different thing to his work on Richard himself, which is always balanced – and in my opinion of the the best introductory books on Richard. Since Richard had declared all of the children of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville illegitimate, to have Elizabeth arrayed in the same manner as the Queen was seen, by some, as shocking. Kincaid, who edited a new edition of Buck’s Richard III in 1979, believed Buck’s sources were reliable. Henry Tudor felt he had to keep her in her place. Unfortunately the original letter from Elizabeth of York is lost. Also the marriage to Joanna had to have been considered prior to Anne’s death, it’s illogically to think otherwise. This is what remains of the original text of George Buck’s manuscript: “…st she thanked him for his many Curtesies and friendly Then in their marriage essentially War of the Roses ended. On the other hand it could have been a blatant rumour and Richard wanted it squashed. He had lost both his wife and son in the space of a year, and with a tenuous hold on the throne, an heirless king was vulnerable. It is extremely unlikely Richard III would risk his somewhat tenuous position and his own reputation to have extra-marital sex with his own niece, or that he would have risked ruining her reputation. In Philippa Gregory’s The Cousins’ War series, Elizabeth of York falls in love with King Richard III while she is serving as a lady in waiting for Queen Anne Neville. The fact that Joanna even accepted Richard is extremely interesting in itself. Omg No, he never thought of marrying her, Richard specifically was planning marry Joanna of Portugal, this all well known, and Gregory utterly ignores this, he was also planning on marry EOY to the later Manuel I of Portugal. Elizabeth of York was given two books by her uncle, Richard III-Tristan and Iseult and Boethius Consolatio Philosophiae. After meeting Iseult Tristan is treated for an illness by her – Richard comforted by EoY after EoM’s death. Richard was her uncle, he was her father’s favorite brother by all accounts. The gossip about Elizabeth began probably when the privy council was told Richard had quit Anne’s bed. Also it wouldn’t have been Ratcliffe and Catesbury who be telling Richard he couldn’t marry EOY, they were both low born nobility, if anyone would have it would have been John Howard, Duke of Norfolk and Sir Francis Lovell. “Imagination is more important than knowledge. The two men who probably could have were Francis Lovell, a Viscount or John Howard the Duke of Norfolk. For it appeared that in no other way could his kingly power be established, or the hopes of his rival being put an end to.”3. This text is from A.N. When the Yorks were in power during the War of Roses...the rightful heirs to the throne disappeared in the Tower of London. Also that account that claims Richard had to be “convinced” not to marry her is full of crap, there’s no way in the middle ages you’re getting 12 doctors of divinity together at one place in such a short period of time. Factual error. I, therefore, think that the letter citing Elizabeth’s impatience with how long it was taking for Anne to die accurately reflects Elizabeth’s sentiments. EoY was NOT betrothed to Henry Tudor. Did Richard III want to marry his niece Elizabeth of York? Elizabeth of York has been blamed by some writers for giving fuel to the rumours, speculating that she was in love with her uncle, a ludicrously misogynistic take on the matter. When I first spoke to David Baldwin about it I was convinced there was no truth to the rumours but he seems to think differently and I respect his opinions. Richard could have stopped all the speculation by arranging honorable marriages for his brothers’ daughters or placing them in convents.. I would not be the least surprised if he took advantage once in awhile and was discreet about it. It must have been hurtful what he did to her, her siblings and her mother. What Richard needed was Lancastrian blood, Edward IV had been able to hold the peace between old Lancastrians families and the Yorkist in his later years. It is also worth bearing in mind that Richard opened negotiations for himself to be marry Joanna, the sister of the King of Portugla, and Elizabeth to marry Joanna’s cousin, Duke of Beja. I have heard that theory before, that Richard was involved in the rumours being spread but but I am not convinced by it either. MS. Egerton 2216 ff. It is likely that the idea of the marriage had been discussed, whether rumour or fact. Perhaps Elizabeth was envisioning a future as Richard III’s Queen. All and all Elizabeth was realistically the only bride of age to marry and being the eldest was most suited for marriage. What happened to him and his brother—the Princes in the Tower—after that has been the subject of much speculation and debate. It does tell us that Richard was not a particularly popular king, nor was he trusted. To give her two of his own books as gifts shows that he must have held her in some esteem. Her two older daughters at least, returned to court with Richard’s promise of protection and good marriages, and her older son from her first marriage, Thomas Grey, who had fled abroad, came back home with the promise that he would be welcomed back by Richard. We’ll never know how they’re marriage truly was but I don’t see enough evidence that Richard and Anne were separated post Edward’s deaths. Though Elizabeth of York was by that declaration made illegitimate, Richard III was rumored to have had plans to marry her. Here are a couple excerpts from, Blood Sisters: The Women Behind the Wars of the Roses, by Sarah Gristwood. Most of House York supported Richard, Elizabeth Woodville had come out of sanctuary and Richard in 1484 was as secure as he ever would be as King. This isn’t true at all. It was fairly common, the Woodvilles especially wrote there names in books often. Richard’s advisers would have been against such a marriage because they would not wanted to see Elizabeth with her Woodville blood restored to power. There are no mentions of Richard being unfaithful to his wife Anne. Was there a romance between Richard III and Elizabeth of York? I think Elizabeth might have had mixed feelings on him, because there were rumors he killed her brothers, she knew he executed her uncle and other brother (An uncle she would seen much then Richard), that he executed her father’s best friend, William Hastings, that he forced her father’s favorite mistress to do a walk of shame, and that he declared her and her siblings bastards, and her mother a whore. But it is not evidence, as some have speculated, that she was in love with her uncle. That’s my guess. und dessen Ehefrau Elizabeth Woodville. There is just too little we know why she didn’t tear his name out. This is a copy of the letter from the edition available online: “When the midst and last of February was past, the Lady Elizabeth, being more impatient and jealous of the success anyone knew or conceived, writes a letter to the Duke of Norfolk, intimating first that he was the man in whom she affied, in respect of that love her father had ever bore him, etc. Also I want to address this idea that Richard had a weak claim in 1485/1484. Elizabeth was now the oldest heir of Edward IV—the perfect bride for Henry Tudor, who swore an oath to marry her once he seized the English crown. The De la Pole boys would later be thorns in the sides to Henry VII for his entire reign. The political gain would not have outweighed the costs, in the end. Soon after their re-entry into Richard III’s court, Elizabeth of York’s mother started scheming to marry her to Henry Tudor, a contender for the throne. It is possible the Pope may have issued a dispensation. It goes that in order to stop Henry Tudor talking about a marriage between himself and EoY, Richard allowed the idea that he would marry her himself to ‘leak’ and put paid to Henry’s plan. Although Anne Neville’s health was beginning to fail, his son, Edward, was still alive. I mean I can try to guess at least why some people could speculate about the books, as they could not understand why she, having mixed feelings for this person at best, as you said, still wanted to remember who the book belonged to first before her. And then she intimated that the better half of Fe[bruary] was past, and that she feared the queen would nev[er die. There certainly was no need to poison an already fatally ill wife. If Richard wanted to thwart a marriage between Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor, all he had to do was marry her off to anyone else. Margaret Beaufort it seems also ended up with a few of Richard’s books and tore his name out of them. George had betrayed both his brothers in Warwick’s rebellion and then again him and Richard fought. So NO, Richard would never even consider marrying Joanna. He had absolutely NO intention of marrying his niece. Buck’s work was largely based on the original manuscript of the Chronicle and is an extremely important early history. nevertheless, I disagree with Anonymous assertion that Richard was in negotiations to marry Joanna of Portugal. I think Elizabeth latched onto his neediness at this time. These alliances were highly important to the English as Portugal in 1400s was looking like a rising star, with various different colonies in the Atlantic already. Polydore Vergil said that Richard was complaining to a number of courtiers that Anne could no longer give him an heir. If he had indeed considered it at all, and the likeliest scenario is that it was simply a rumour. This is a pretty tricky subject Jasmine. No copyright infringement intended. ‘A Solitary Place’ Henry VII and Elizabeth of York’s tomb at Westminster Abbey. Elizabeth of York was born at the Palace of Westminster as the eldest child of King Edward IV and his wife, Elizabeth Woodville. The face of her effigy may have been based on her death mask, taken when she died on her thirty-seventh birthday in the royal apartments in the Tower of London. Februar 1466 im Westminster Palace; 11. Otherwise I don’t think this issue would be so eagerly brought up time and again and would be likely long forgotten. Later in March Elizabeth of York went to court and joined Queen Anne’s household, where her famed beauty was reportedly attracting a great deal of attention. She was supposed to conceive. Elizabeth’s fever deteriorated after the birth and she died a day after Katherine on the 11th February, her thirty-seventh birthday. In fact, all of these scenarios, that Richard forced the Queen to display Elizabeth in this manner, or that Elizabeth was trying to outshine the Queen, are mere misogyny. Also if fertility was what Richard was after he very simply could have married the 14 year old Isabel of Aragon, who was also offered to him as a choice of a bride. I really don’t buy too much into the book thing. NE LaNeve. But on reflection I think they mean something else entirely.” 11. On the same page Elizabeth wrote the motto she had chosen for herself, “sans removyr (without changing), Elyzabeth”. I can’t prove it, I think its very unlikely. Also the “over dozen doctors of theology” would be insane for 1485. Buck happened upon the previously undiscovered Croyland Chronicle, containing Richard III’s suppressed act of Parliament, Titulus Regius, which had declared Edward IV’s children illegitimate. Public images for Kings were everything, I just very much doubt the idea that Richard ever was publiclly cruel to Anne or made comments about her in such a fashion. It is Henry VII’s reaction to Elizabeth’s death that is the strongest case to show the depth of affection they shared. Elizabeth of York really wouldn’t have provided Richard with much of anything in 1484/85, House York already supported him and she had no dowry part of his promise to Elizabeth Woodville was to provide her daughters with a dowry. Can the Doctor Bounce Back After Series 11? Restoring Elizabeth of York to royal status may have pleased disaffected Yorkists still loyal to the memory of Edward IV and resistant to Richard’s rule because of his treatment of Edward’s sons. You also make Elizabeth still think Richard would marry her even after he publicly denied her. Furthermore I want to address the public denial, I think it should for a medieval lawyer William Catesby appears in the record way too often. The details of the negotiations during March to August for Richard III to marry Joanna sister of the King of Portugal and Elizabeth of York to marry Joanna’s cousin Manuel Duke of Beja in ‘The Portuguese Connection and the Significance of the ‘Holy Princess’ ‘ by Barry Williams (Vol. In the first book, Elizabeth wrote her motto-“Without Changing” under Richard’s signature. But when I was researching that book, A.N. Were talking about an era where it took weeks to travel safely. Hence he would have to take unprecedented steps of reassuring his subjects of what he wanted them to believe, truth or not. For bonus points, Iseult”s mother is claimed to be a ‘sorceress’ by some. Elizabeth of York was in no position to do anything other than what she was told. Sir George Buck, who in 1619 wrote, History of King Richard the Third says that he took this quote from a piece of a letter which Elizabeth of York wrote to her uncle, John Howard, Duke of Norfolk: 273-273v, Ingulph version of the Croyland Chronicles. foto. We have to consider a fact that Joanna was much advanced in age and had never given birth to children, Richard would certainly never agree to marry even for political advantages to a women that could not bear children. I think it shows that Elizabeth was a very kind young woman, because taking your interpretation that she wrote her name in the book to save it from being torn out, it means she didn’t have negative feelings for him, despite everything. After her father's death and her uncle Richard's usurpation, Elizabeth was … So what? ( Log Out /  There is nothing but this made up letter to suggest any feelings. Elizabeth of YorkElizabeth WoodvilleHenry VIIRichard III. However, Tristan has to marry Iseult to someone else, they have no choice, but tell each other their love lasts. Her third sponsor was her cousin Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick. Marrying Richard was actually Elizabeth of York’s best bet for gaining a crown. Also we do know when Elizabeth wrote in the books, it was anytime after she became a bastard to when she married Henry VII because her motto changed after she married Henry VII. Richard was more pragmatic than his brother Edward IV in that department. We do not know if he was always faithful either. The late David Baldwin too k a more serious approach to it, but there is no real evidence, and Richard was not actively seeking a new wife at this point. It seemed extraordinary that out of all men, Elizabeth would fall for someone who had ousted her family out of their rightful place. For years, I have had this unexplained connection to Richard the Third since I was a child, don’t know why, read many books about Richard the Third and even wrote at least 2 papers on various subjects on this man. It makes no sense, especially in the light of the recent discoveries in Portugal regarding the propose marriages mentioned in LauraS’s post above. Dynastic marriages were made with alliances and advantages in mind, not with love or sexual attraction. Richard attempted to marry first his son, then himself, to Edward and Elizabeth's oldest daughter, known as Elizabeth of York… Envoys left six days after Queen Anne died, meaning that these plans had to be long in place, and mostly likely started up during February when it became apparent Queen Anne wasn’t going to live. Richard would have had to make Elizabeth of York legally legitimate again, and would then have to acknowledge that her missing brothers were also legitimate, who would then revert to the position of rightful heirs to the throne. Both books had belonged to Richard when he was Duke of Gloucester. Elizabeth was young, beautiful and most importantly, her mother and grandmother had excellent childbearing records. The negotiations came to a sudden halt with the news of the Battle of Bosworth. She had not recovered from giving birth the week before, perhaps prematurely, to her eighth child a little girl, who did not survive long. There had been negotiations during Edward IV’s lifetime for a marriage between her and the Dauphin. First she thanked him for his many courtesies and friendly [offices, an]d then she prayed him as before to be a mediator for her in the cause of [the marriage] to the k[i]ng, who, as she wrote,  was her only joy and maker in [this] world, and that she was his in heart and in thoughts, in [body,] and in all. She probably has more truth in her books than some historians do. Anyways the argument could work the other way as well. Also EOY is sent from court after Queen Anne’s death, meaning she was probably closer to Queen Anne then Richard, given that as a lady to the Queen she would have spent most of her time with Anne. Richard going with Joanna seems to indicate that he was not very focused on a Prince so much as he was on ensuring his kingship with a Lancastrian Queen who could be left as regent if she needed to. It made its way into Tudor-era chronicles, ballads and eventually into Shakespeare’s The Tragedy of Richard III. It’s my personal opinion it may have been entertained at some point and then dropped. Nothing in that indicates romantic love to me. The Portuguese marriage negotiations commenced well after the rumours that Richard wanted to marry his niece were brewing. Walking around the Temple of Dawn, Wat Arun: Day 1 in Thailand. Anne probably had been in ill health for some time. As for Richard’s marriage, a King’s marriage was a matter of state. It’s very possibly they did and they died young, children of Lords weren’t usually recorded until the age of two or so. With regard to David Baldwyn’s theories, after having read his The Lost Prince, and seeing how he threads together extremely tenuous flakes of information to make something entirely different (and straining one’s credulity in the process) I am not sure I would believe him about Richard’s and Elizabeth’s relationships. Her claim to fame was that she was the mother of Henry VIII and the grandmother to Elizabeth I daughter of the ill fated Anne Boleyn. Many myths persist about the last Plantagenet king, whose remains were discovered beneath a … Historians have long debated the authenticity of the letter and of Buck’s credentials. It has then been expanded based on Vergil’s account that Richard went to Rotterham that Richard went around talking about Anne’s lack of fertility. And common sense dictates this was merely a rumour designed to injure Richard III, and perhaps even Henry VII. Kerblam? In general Vergil is very unreliable when it comes to Richard III. You can’t make all people think alike or be interested in the same things in the same way. But surprisingly those two are barely mentioned in that document about Richard’s court (Written a year after his death), that alone raises suspicion in the document, that two key figures in Richard’s court would be left out. Sadly he would die only a few weeks later. heiratete sie den neuen König Heinrich VII. So the idea that the Yorkists were running out of heirs isn’t true at all. That Richard III intended to marry his brother’s daughter, Elizabeth of York, is a rumour that we can date back to 1483. I think it’s not that strange since it’s not the first time when something related to famous historical person raises all kinds of speculations, especially when we are dealing with something related to Richard III. And to be honest I’m rather sick of the focus on Richard III and Elizabeth of York. Elizabeth’s uncle, Richard Duke of Gloucester met Edward and his party as they were travelling south. Was Richard truly intent on marrying his niece? Olga Hughes has a BFA from the Victorian College of the Arts and a BA in History and Literary Studies from Deakin University. And Richard imprisons people who still spread the rumor afterwards, and Richard makes no moves to get a papal dispensation in order to marry her. Henry Tudor set aside any suspicion of a relationship and that is what counted. If Edward IV could make a knight’s widow his queen, Richard III probably thought he could also make Elizabebeth of York a queen. LouDannelee_20 likes this. By March of 1484 Westminster Abbey was under siege and Richard was pressuring Elizabeth Woodville to leave Sanctuary. Although a marriage between uncle and niece was not strictly forbidden by the church, it had caused much revulsion among the councilors, and Richard’s most trusted men Ratcliffe and Catesbury warned him that such decision would lose support of Northerners as it would seem Richard had caused the death of his wife in order to marry Elizabeth. Had Richard seriously considered marrying his niece, he would have been considering that she was a focus of rebellion for disaffected Yorkists, that by marrying her he may win their loyalty and keep the threat of rebellion at bay. I don’t think anyone looks at that and goes “Oh Elizabeth must have been in love with him as well” Her writing her name It very simply could have been familial love, or to remember her father’s brother. Richard was then compelled to publicly deny the charges and “in the great hall at St. John’s in the presence of the mayor and citizens of London and in a clear, loud voice carried out fully the advice to make a denial of this kind.”7. Look throughout recent history. Like you said we have no evidence to what the relationship was like. Also I don’t think Richard would have had much room to complain about Anne’s fertility, one we don’t know if they had other children. Here is another video on The White Queen and The White Princess. Such level of compassion is too grand for me. This is 1485, travel takes alot of time and energy and to just be able to pick a bride that quick after Anne’s death doesn’t seem very logically to me given the time period. He took then captured Edward and continued on … It can not, centuries later, be determined how seriously it was contemplated. She has also contributed to websites such as History Behind Game of Thrones. Elizabeth of York as a married woman is portrayed a meek and compliant, but perhaps she was forced to be submissive. …as before… Elizabeth's mother, Elizabeth Woodville, and Margaret Beaufort , mother of Henry Tudor, a Lancastrian claiming to be heir to the throne, planned another future for Elizabeth of York: marriage to Henry Tudor when he overthrew Richard III. In addition, Croyland claimed that they had brought in “over a dozen Doctors of theology who asserted that the Pope had no power of dispensation over that degree of consanguinity.” This sheds some light on the idea that historical fiction authors enjoy perpetuating, that incest was not “unusual”. Februar 1503 im Tower of London) war eine englische Prinzessin aus dem Haus York und die älteste Tochter des Königs Eduard IV. 90, March 1983) contradict accusations that Richard was planning to marry his niece. 266V-267, Bodleian MS Malone 1 ff. Richard III then demanded that Elizabeth also turn over custody of her daughters, and she complied. Kincaid’s 1976 edition of Buck’s History: [[]But when the mid]st and more days of February were gone, [the Lady Eli]zabeth, being very desirous to be married, and growing not only impatient of delays, but also suspicious of the [success,] wrote a letter to Sir John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, intimating first therein that [he was the] one in whom she most [affied,] because she knew the king her father much lov[ed him,] and that he was a very faithful servant unto him and to [the king his brother then reign]ing, and very loving and serviceable to King Edward’s children. To me this strikes me as very unusually account, even when Henry VIII was attempting to seek an annulment from Catherine of Aragon he very publicly said that he was worried about his own mortal soul, and that he was hoping the Pope would make the marriage legally sound. From her standpoint, Elizabeth probably thought Richard would have been more compatible than Richard. That still doesn’t mean she wasn’t fearful of him, or upset by his actions. Also many people are simply interested in controversy, and when where is something speculative, unknown or questionable, it raises discussions around it . Now it seems to me a man accustomed to willing girls develops a real.liking for women. I mean you can still love your family members and still feel betrayed and upset by there actions. Elizabeth of York was blonde and blue-eyed, ... Elizabeth and her four younger sisters were invited to court by Uncle Richard, 14 years Elizabeth’s senior and married to Queen Anne Neville. und wurde die Mutter des zukünftigen englischen Königs Heinrich VIII. Richard was a man who had a very strict moral code in terms of his household, other then being friendly to his nieces I doubt he would have seen them that much. Sometime after March of 1485 Richard had entered into negotiations to marry the Infanta Joanna, the sister of John II of Portugal, and his cousin the Duke of Beja to marry an unnamed ‘daughter of Edward IV’. I don’t think there is anything unusual at all about Elizabeth writing her name along with the mottos.
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